This comment is no longer available.

Ireland has got no chance. They talk themselves up everytime and the result is always the same. It all starts up front – they don’t have a front row to cut it with NZ, with or without POC the locks aren’t up to much either. McCaw, Read and whoever grabs the 6 jersey will win the battle in the loose and as always the AB backline will cut them to shreds. Leinster might be the best team in Europe but they wouldn’t even make the Super 15 play-offs. 3 nil to the ABs again. Bank it.

What’s JG got to say on this Mark? The eternal optimism of the Irish and memories of them spanking the Ausie’s last year leaves me looking forward to the upcoming series.

Remember when Ireland played England at Twickers after their WC win, and top of the world rankings… Go Ireland. ABs fans were worried about Ireland before Wales put them out. Ireland can beat the ABs once off… if they do it in the first game, the backlash will be intense.

@Manuka. I don’t know where you keep coming up with this stuff. AB fans have never, will never be worried about Ireland. 107 years and counting.

This comment is no longer available.

+1 John. England have earnt the respect. Been 10 years since they beat ABs but did do it home and away and then won a RWC. Ireland’s “golden generation” one 6 Nations Grand Slam and lots of failure.

I spoke to many a kiwi pre world cup and they were so worried about not winning WC and trying to pick who could create the upset. Before and especially after Ireland beat Oz they were very worried about Ireland. All of the ones i spoke to, mostly South Islanders but some Jafas too. Can’t believe you’re saying AB fans weren’t worried after so many WC choke ups. They were still cacking them selves hours after the final had finished. They hated the whole WC experience except the first France game. It’s just the crowing afterwards they enjoy. It is just wishful thinking that Ireland will be the first to upset WC champs again as AB fans are so cocky. I agree the Leinster Munster Ulster thing doesn’t add up as they were on form pre 6 nations and did not carry up to Ireland level. BUT, they just might get the first game as its not a particularly good AB side as AB sides go: they squeezed a home WC only playing one top 10 side with no coaching set up to help them. France were even luckier to be in the final. Crazy; a finalist with two losses, three at the end. ABs fluked it but deserved a bit of luck for the efforts between WCs.

Ok suppose it was 3 top 10 teams :-)

@Manuka aka idiot troll. Go troll somewhere else – Planet Rugby forums are more your style. Any Kiwis you ‘claim’ to have spoken to know nearly as litle about rugby than you do if they ‘told you’ that. More likely they were just being good hosts and humouring you. Ireland was NEVER even on our radar. I was at all the AB games and the atmosphere was superb especially for the semi when we kept Australia try-less. AB fans were confident enough to spend record amounts at the TAB backing our team. You make yourself look even more ridiculous with comments like “no coaching set up to help them.” I guess you don’t know who Graham Henry, Steve Hansen and Wayne Smith are? The most experienced and successful coaching set-up in rugby history (look up the stats) and the people who set-up this site you keep posting on. 1 out of 10….ummm they beat Tonga, France twice, Argentina and Australia. Squeezed a World Cup…ummm they went undefeated, scored a record number of tries, trailed only for 5 minutes all tournament, made do with a 4th string 1st 5 8th, played badly in the final and still won. Not a very good AB side you say? How would you know when the team hasn’t been announced yet. The squad looks pretty darn good to me and stacked with World Cup winners…McCaw, Mealamu, both Franks, Williams, Read, Woodcock, Weepu, Ellis, SBW, Smith, Nonu, Guilford, Dagg etc. AB fans crow before, during and afterwards and have every reason to:)

@Manuka sorry didnt mean to sound nasty in my last post, no offense entended. Just couldnt let you spout nonsense like that unchallenged. Clearly you love the game…but aren’t lucky enough to support a good team:)

I meant France had no coaching set up to help. I know Henry Hansen and Smith… They all came North for their coaching training. Ireland for the first test.

+1 Manuka Wood, you have silly facts when you mentioned many a kiwi was worried. They’re probably were drunk, 22 year olds out of college on their O.E. that usually don’t follow or attend many games. Like the article said ‘the famous Irish optimism’ …however myself and many Kiwis believe New Zealand 3 – Ireland 0

Mostly they are 50+ life long AB Crusader fans and old friends. But you can refuse to believe it if you like. I’m not Irish or an Ireland fan so it was open conversation. Silly but true. I’m not going to bother trying to convince you folks anymore if it is too hard to believe that’s fine by me.

@Manuka “North for their training” – heard of Auckland/ the Blues, Canterbury, the Crusaders, All Blacks. Henry, Hansen, Smith were all headhunted North because of their track record of coaching success and worked wonders at Northampton and Wales. Have a look at the nationality of many of the world’s top coaches. Kiwis coaching something like half of the teams at RWC 2011 and at many of the top European clubs. I wonder why that is?

The sun is setting on the McCaw-Carter All-Blacks, the most successful pairing of the professional era, and arguably of all time. Watching the Crusaders in S-15, it’s unclear to me how much M&C really have “left in the tank”. How good will this ABs side be with a new coach, little time to prepare, and likely a bunch of new selections? Who knows? Ireland doesn’t have the raw talent of the ABs, but their players have mostly all played together for a long time. It would be hardly shocking if they pulled one off. Clearly the best opportunity since the professional era began.

@ Michael Goldstein, I’d be shocked!

Was just kidding. Excellent coaches. I’ve gotta stop ribbing the AB fans. Good luck for a very likely 3-0 test series with Dagg running rings around Kearny. And my BOD tackle comment was a bad joke too. ABs are clean. All the best for three great tests.

Yes and look at that Kiwi coaching the Lions……..

I don`t understand, why it is, that the NH is full of doubters like Mark, yes, history is against the touring Irish side, but you must at least admit, that recent Irish games, in RWC and 6N rugby have sent a wave of expectation throughout, not just the NH, but also that of the SH, add to that, the recent Heineken cup success and the reinforcement for an anticapated upset is on the cards. I am NOT saying that it will be successful, but these guys, must have belief in themselves and if, they are ever going to win against the All Blacks, I would tip the first game in Auckland of them doing so, if they do not succede, in that game, they will indeed lose the series, as a All Black fan, more importantly, a Rugby fan, I would like to see them get that 107 year “Monkey” off thier backs………for the good of the game!.

@Manuka. Enjoy the series. The ribbing is all good natured – us Kiwis are happy to dish it out so got to take is as well. I will never forget the great hospitality watching the ABs in Dublin. Great people the Irish and am sure both sets of fans (and neutrals like your self) will have blast this series. @Ron. Pull your head in. Under no circumstances should an AB fan want us to lose. One of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard!

@S Spooony, and don’t forget about the Kiwi coach for the Sharks…who just beat the top of the SA conference Stormers!

Ireland certainly have the players to win one Test at least. Kearney, Bowe and O’Driscoll in the backs, and Healy, Best, O’Connell and all three back-rowers all match up well with their opposite numbers.

The problem is not personnel but the coaching. Leinster get the most out their home-grown talent – witness the difference in Sexton and D’Arcy’s performances in a blue shirt rather than green, but the NT set-up doesn’t. It’s shame such a lot of talent is going to waste. Give the Irish the ‘three wise men’ for a couple of years, or just Joe Schmidt and no doubt they’d be winning games against all the SH sides…

I think there will be some questions about the All Black tight forwards that need answering too. No Brad Thorn, maybe no Mealamu and Woodcock, that’s a few holes to fill! The AB scrum will have their hands full with the Irish front-row, and their lineout may be vulnerable, the Crusaders got taken apart by the Bulls a few weeks back at lineout-time. Sam Whitelock got obliterated by Juandre Kruger and they didn’t know when they were ever going to win a ball… O’Connell, Donncha Ryan and Heaslip could apply some pressure there.

James, you just make yourself look like a laughing-stock by claiming that Leinster wouldn’t make the Super play-offs. Grow up man and grow a beard. The only NZ teams who could give them a game would be the Crusaders and the Chiefs – with or without Brad Thorn!

I’m looking forward to the tour, it will be competitive at least…

Hunter Gassaway The Sharks have better players than the Stormers, but they are the worst-coached side in the competition.

Jack – we’ve already got one idiot troll talking up Ireland we don’t need another. BOD the only Irishman who you could call world class and he wouldn’t even make the extended squad of 35. Healy, Best, POC, Kearny, Heaslip, Bowe are nothing more than journeymen. Ireland are going to get done up front and all across the park from 1 to 15 – just like they have for the past 107 years. You know nothing about tight forward play, if you did you would recognise that Ireland has no chance. the Chiefs, Crusaders, Highlanders, Hurricanes, Stormers, Sharks, and Bulls, all have better scrums, loosies, and halves than Leinster so it’s obvious to anyone that knows anything about rugby they would be mid-table at best. Keep talking them up, keep thinking you are clever, Ireland is bloody average and this is going to be a really good NZ team. Facts are facts. Guys like TJ Perena and Andre Taylor are better than anyone in the NH playing 9 and 15 and still can’t make our squad. 3 nil to the All Blacks by a country mile.

James…. I can only give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you haven’t watched any NH rugby. But whether you are aware of it or not, there is a world beyond NZ that also plays the game of rugby. And some good players too.

The Crusaders have a good scrum, and the Chiefs are decent too, but that’s where it ends. And all of the top NZ franchises have been under pressure at the lineout from the top South African teams. Go take a look at the first half of the Highlanders-Bulls game, the Landers didn’t win a single one of their own throws cleanly! Facts are facts, but you choose not to see them.

Cian Healy is one good example. Outside Woodcock I can’t think of one NZ loosehead who’s better. Improved scrummager, great ball-carrier, gets around the field well. Likewise Rory Best is as good as anyone in NZ at hooker. A great, intelligent tight forward. I hope at least most Kiwi supporters will be open-minded enough to enjoy the play of both sides rather than just their own…

And FYI, the only person on this forum who tries to bully people with his opinions [usually without offering factual back-up] is you.

James, have you watched Leinster play? I don’t mean once or twice in a highlight reel… Have you watched their last two Heineken Cup runs? I normally prefer SH rugby, but the Heineken Cup is an exception. It is the most intense club competition in the world, bar none. Leinster is the most mentally tough club side I’ve ever seen: if you saw last year’s final, you’d know that. To suggest that the Crusaders, especially this year’s piss-poor imitation of Crusader’s side would wipe the pitch with them is ludicrous, IMO.

I always root for the ABs and am looking forward to this coming international season because I’m not sure what’s going to emerge. I suspect the transition will be tougher than you credit. A hardened Irish side with many more settled combinations than the ABs will be an interesting first up challenge.

@James, you’ve got better contributions to make than merely attacking every troll with a view that doesn’t fit yours. Let’s not extend the monoculture beyond its boundaries.

This comment is no longer available.

Jack, Michael, Manuka – unreserved apologies for some of my last comments. Not trying to bully anyone just get a tad overexcited about some of these themes – but should treat you all with respect even when I passionately disagree. As mentioned previously on another thread I watch as much rugby as I can (at all levels) and spend a lot of time in the UK. I was lucky enough to make it to about half a dozen live matches here this season including both finals at Twickenham and that dreadful match at the Stoop. As such I think that gives me some license to comment on European club rugby compared to the Super 15. Leinster and Quins are both excellent teams that play rugby the right way but for my mind lack the X factor and broad skillsets from prop to fullback. Brad Thorn and Kaino are massive holes to fill, the best in the world in their position but other than that the Crusaders and NZ packs are unchanged. The Hurricanes backline is quite sensational at the moment, they play at a pace you just don’t see in Europe. The Highlanders are far from perfect but have an experienced and proven front frow. As for Healy he was my man of the match against Australia in the World Cup but the Aussie front row is a real weakness as we all know. I’d take Woodcock, both Franks, Mackintosh, and Faumuina over him accepting of course some of those guys are better suited at tight-head. I’m not saying Ireland or Leinster aren’t good teams (in Leinster’s case really good) I just don’t think they match up well with what NZ has at the moment. We can go back and forward on this and at the end of the day it is opinions that can only be proven on the pitch. It’s been 8 months since the ABs have played so more than anything just really excited about this series.

Passion is fine James, as long as it doesn’t go over the top!

At the risk of stirring the pot further, if we were to select a Leinster/Crusaders side at the moment, I think it would look something like this :

Healy, Strauss, O.Franks, S.Whitelock, Thorn, O’Brien, Read and McCaw in the forwards. Ellis, Sexton, Carter, O’Driscoll, Dagg, Guilford and Kearney in the backs.

That’s six Leinstermen, eight Crusaders and one guy who’s played for both in Brad Thorn! One helluva side there…

Out of the props you mention in comparison to Healy, I think there’s a big drop-off in quality after Woodcock. Faumuina is probably the best of the bunch but I doubt he’s as dynamic as Healy.

I like this banter we do amongst each other some with facts, some with opinions and some with both. Makes me wish for June 9th to hurry up. Leinster are the best for the Heineken cup, but not for the Rabodirect Pro 12. Wales is a team to look out for then Ireland and then England, however everybody will see how the All Blacks stay #1 in IRB world rankings. No doubt. I’ll be the first to eat my words with no hesitation. @Michael Goldstein I disagree about the Heineken cup competition being more hard hitting than the Super 15s. If you saw the Hurricanes vs the Rebels, Sharks vs Stormers, Chiefs and Bulls then you would realize that your fact is fiction and that’s only this past weekend. Heineken Cup tough yes, but when it comes down to 3 Southern Hemisphere teams battling it out I know which comp I would “rather” be watching… the one that has the top 3 world ranking teams playing each other. I do watch both when there’s time though.

@Michael Goldstein.. when I referred to the Super 15’s being “more hard hitting” it was to your comment about the H Cup being…“the most intense club competition”. I did disagree, but my choice of words in retrospect should include “all around more challenging in every aspect of club rugby.”

Claremont V Leinster was the toughest club game I’ve seen for a long time. Players regularly say HC games are international intensity although admittedly they refer to 6 nations not tri nations, usually. I don’t often hear super 15 players say their games are like internationals.

Stir away Jack. In some quarters I would be disowned for even countenancing the idea of saying any Leinster players could make the Crusaders but if I HAD to: more like a 11-4, 10-5 split. There’s no way I would move the world’s best ever 1st 5 out a place to accommodate Sexton (he’s not even on the bench). BOD at 12, Fruean at 13. Same back 3 as you with Kearny on the left wing. O’Brien gets the nod at 6 as not totally convinced by any of the Crusader options at the moment. Thorn at lock of course. Debatable on front row. Personally I’d go for the Franks sandwiching Flynn but not opposed too much to the idea of Strauss. Speaking of the Franks I think they are outstanding and would rank them above Faumuina (a more natural tighthead) and Mackinstosh who has been overtaken in the pecking order. Right now I reckon the best loosehead in world rugby is Tongan. Taumalolo was superb as we all know at the World Cup and even better in Super Rugby this season. He isn’t just destroying guys at scrum time, but he has great defense and scores tries – lots of tries!

The key thing is that Leinster are good right now whereas Crusaders are always very good barring the odd slow start to the season which top clubs often suffer. Crusaders are always up with the best or simply stand alone best. But right now Leinster would give them a great game. Even if Leinster prolong the Dynasty they share their legacy with the likes of Tolouse and Munster. Whereas Crusaders are top of the S. Hem pyramid permenantly. Pedigree is not a here today gone tomorrow attribute, it’s to be reviewed in decades not seasons. Leinster have started to show they have Pedigree. Will they hold onto it after BOD or lose it like WASPs when LOL left? Too soon to say; and in the meantime they are beneath the crusaders and even now might well not beat them. That said today the players are a match… if they remain that good, not losing key games to Ospreys etc, for a decade maybe Ireland will beat the ABs in 2023… Maybe. But I’m still hoping BOD gets his AB.

James, IMO Owen is great but not so sure about Ben. Useful bloke to have around as he can play both sides, but not a killer on either as a starter.

Your comment on Sona Taumololo made me laugh, because up here they rate a Tongan as the best loose-head on the planet…. but not the same one. Soane Tonga’huia! Strange indeed to find the Tongans with two props rated so highly. in global terms.

Quote John Maxwell: “Now …. with Leinster crowned the best team on earth, does that make Ospreys the best team in the Universe?? ;-p”

No, it just goes to show how bloody hard it is to win more than one competition: 22 matches in the RaboDirect, plust 2 playoff rounds, plus 6 matches in the pool round of the Heineken Cup, plus 3 rounds of knockout play: 33 matches altogether. Heineken Cup has clearly been Leinster’s priority. If Cian Healey had played the RaboDirect final instead, Leinster would have won easily, IMO. Instead he was injured and sat it out, and Leinster’s scrum was penalized the whole match.

A referee killing a game is not a tough game. Players almost past their prime move over to Europe and looks good. Tells you a lot about the standard then.

Spoony. Past his prime? Thorn? Old yes but this year he was good enough to start for the ABs and stood out in that team. He’s in his prime, especially for club rugby. And still not stand out at Leinster any more than at ABs. Leinster could beat a touring AB side even if Ireland can’t beat ABs in NZ.

Not a chance Manuka, not a chance. Carter v Sexton its not even fair. I do agree though that Leinster is a better team the Ireland. Thorn alone would make the difference and they have tried and trusted combinations. You’ve changed your tune. I thought you said Ireland is going to win the 1st test?

My heart says Ireland for the 1st test. But 107 years; it takes a greater team, and no injuries to break that kimd of hoodoo. Carter looks like he can’t even make 10 for Crusaders. He’ll be out of form thanks to Blackadder.

He started at 10 in the last game when they absolutely pummeled the Blues (that’s not saying much of course) and Blackadder has done the right thing slowly easing him back into it – especially with Taylor kicking so well. DC will be ready and firing.

James, “Carter v Sexton its not even fair.” Carter in his prime, an absolutely true statement. But the last few years, even prior to the last injury, Carter has been an average International goal kicker at best. With the match on the line and a difficult kick — in June of 2012 — I think I’d rather have JS kicking than DC, sorry to say. JS is not quite the magician that DC is with distribution, and not quite as dangerous on the break, but he’s quite good at both. Their positional kicking is probably even, with DC getting the edge in brilliance and spatial awareness, but with Sexton (in 2012) having a longer boot. Sexton’s also a gutty defender, and hits above his weight, nearly even with DC.

Oh dear. If DC is firing then Ireland are in real trouble. O’Brien at 7 for all his strengths does not pressure opposition 10, and DC with no pressure can beat Ireland easy. I’m losing confidence by the day on this one.

Gotta remember that half baked AB team we all wished we could have played in the WC final because they were so beatable were without DC and with a one legged McCaw. Ireland may well get blitzed Lions 2nd test style.

Oh dear here we go again Michael. Sexton isn’t even on par with Cruden or a young guy like Barrett and is ridiculously overrated. I’d advise you have a closer look at DC’s goal kicking stats compared to his and then come back to me. You don’t get to be the leading points scorer in test and super rugby by having a sloppy radar and he has been remarkably consistent throughout his career – much better than even Wilkinson. Put simply DC is the best goal kicker of all time, gets more distance than Sexton off the tee and in open play, is a better passer, better runner and better defender. There’s no need to take my word for it though the difference will be there for all to see in a few weeks time.

Carter is an exceptional outside-half, but Sexton ia very good one. And let’s not go down the “NZ have 67 better 10’s than Sexton route….” AGAIN, pleease. We have one over here [Stephen Donald] and he’s currently back-up to a 19 yearold Englishman called Tom Heathcote at Bath.

And Dan Carter is not better at everything. Wilkinson goalkicking percentage was 85%, Carter’s is about 77%.

On the topic of Leinster, outside of the Crusaders they would a majority of players in any other combined franchise team – I reckon about 9-6 Leinster to Chiefs or Highlanders, more with the Hurricanes and probably everyone in a Leinster/Blues team!

Outside the coaching issue it will be a pretty beaten-up Irish side on tour. 51 weeks of consecutive rugby takes its toll. Whether they can raise themsleves for one last effort is anyone’s guess…

Let’s not get carried away. DC is all time highest point scorer because he kicks for a try scoring winning team and Wilkinson had the prime of his career injured. Patterson is/was better kicker than both in percentage terms but obviously not close all time kicking for a team that usually plays teams above them in world ranks. Sexton is very likely to have better percentage. Anyhow big match winning kick ratio is not a stat I’ve seen yet it’s way more important than getting 8 out of 8 vs Japan. DC is an average percentage place kicker vs 6 nation countries however the majority of his kicks are low pressure.

James, “Oh dear here we go again Michael. Sexton isn’t even on par with Cruden or a young guy like Barrett and is ridiculously overrated.” The funny thing about this thread is that I’m not usually a strong JS supporter, and I have been a huge fan of DC for as long as I’ve followed the ABs closely, which is most of his career. The fact is, however, that none of us really knows how much DC has left in the tank. To infer that DC is “ready” based on the rout of a disfunctional and demoralized Blues side is ludicrous, imo. DC’s performances for the Crusaders at #12 have been mixed at best. It was only a few weeks ago that DC threw a series of “shockingly” inaccurate passes… so bad that even Justin Marshall had to comment on them. It’s true that JS had a terrible World Cup, but Cruden’s wasn’t completely stellar either. Cruden this year in S15 has been much improved, and I’m hopeful he’ll translate that to his AB play. But if you’ve watched JS through his career (and I make a point of seeing every Leinster match and most Ireland performances), his play under pressure is usually admirable. He’s never shown it against the ABs, but he’s clearly capable of top notch performances as he’s shown again and again on every other major stage. Cruden and Barrett may have more raw talent, but neither has performed anywhere near Sexton’s best performances in high pressure situations. His second half of the 2011 Heineken Cup final has to be listed among the best performances of all time by a fly half in any major match. I’m not predicting he will defeat the ABs, but not to realize that he’s capable of beating them (on his best day) is self-delusional and flies against his record.

I will not comment on James, or his slander, but I do wish to comment on the issue raised regarding Dan Carter. Is it important that Dan @ 10 have a perfect percentage at the posts, or that he is a reader of the game a defender of his turf and has the ability, beyond that, of most others, to direct the game in motion?, I think that he has answered that, time and time again and it is these abilities that make Dan Carter a magnificent player. a true player of the game and wonderful to watch.

Did I mention Thorn? Half the Heineken Cup is full of foreigners. Leinster is the almost the Irish team.

@S Spoooney, I agree. For the starting Leinster team in the H Cup, not only Brad Thorn, but Richardt Strauss and Isa Nacewa while Nathan White and Heinke van der Merwe on the bench. It seems,Southern Hemisphere players are needed up north while very, very rarely the other way round. However Southern Hemisphere players amongst other SH teams does happen. I’m starting to see a pattern.

“Is it important that Dan @ 10 have a perfect percentage at the posts, or that he is a reader of the game a defender of his turf and has the ability, beyond that, of most others, to direct the game in motion?” Lest anyone doubt where my sympathies lie, I am hoping that DC will slice up the Irish. I believe him to be the finest #10 of this generation, possibly of all time. But if Ireland play their best game, as they did against the Wallabies, and DC is under constant pressure, physical limitations will matter. If his clearing kicks are 10 meters shorter, if some of his passes miss the target, if his goal kicking is 65% instead of 90%, it could be the difference in the match. So far this season, for the Crusaders, he’s not kicked for goal at all; his clearing kicks are clearly shorter than they used to be; his passing, at times, has been extremely erratic. I hope he comes out against Ireland and plays the match of his life: nothing would please me more. But my confidence that he’s physically able to do that has never been lower.

It’s not that N.Hem need S.Hem it’s just that up North can afford to pay a 37 year old big bucks if he’s still good. And it takes him out of international service which means a full season which is a good deal. We also have N.Hem buying N. Hem players. Players that move to NZ have to take a salary cut; that’s why most don’t consider it.

Michael – I guess the guy kicking the goals in the match against the Blues and Rebels was a different Carter?? If you’d rather have JS kicking for you then best of luck and doubt DC all you want. Jack – where do you get your stats from? I question the accuracy of them but am prepared to be proven wrong if you can provide a link.

“Michael – I guess the guy kicking the goals in the match against the Blues and Rebels was a different Carter??” James, I just reviewed both matches as I still have the videos. Rebels???? Tom Taylor did all of the goal kicking in the Rebels match. Versus the Blues, DC kicked the first 8 conversions and was 6 for 8. 75% — that’s OK, right? Well, if you break it down you realize he missed two of his first four conversions. He made all of his kicks in the second half, after this became a rout. Now, for a guy who hadn’t kicked since the World Cup, it was an OK performance, but it was hardly world class. I submit it really doesn’t tell you much about how he’ll perform if he’s personally under pressure and the game is on the line. Now, we can keep this up until June 9 but doesn’t amount to a hill of beans. The two sides will play and someone will win. I will be rooting for the ABs along with you. But it’s borderline delusional to suggest that Ireland have no chance.

If it’s only about the salary I would understand, but I don’t think it is. With the numbers of senior male players registered as of Sept 2011 for New Zealand it’s 27,374; for Ireland 25,440; for England 166,762; for France 110,270 and Wales 22,408. Besides for Ireland and Wales ( Ireland not that much difference from NZ), the Northern Hemisphere has a “much” larger selection of players for club rugby and the national teams. The select national teams I have mentioned are ranked by the IRB to be within the top 8 of the world. New Zealand being #1 and Ireland #8. You would think the NH teams would have enough of their own countrymen to choose from and no need to depend on SH players. With all this money to spend on quality SH players you would think it would be used instead to expand the rugby programs, improve teaching resources and ensure the future talent is nurtured and developed so as to not rely on New Zealanders, South Africans, Australians or other Northern Hemisphere players for their rugby. In short, if you have the players and/or the money why look elsewhere unless your teams lack the quality needed. Even Leinster’s captain Leo Cullen gives credit to Joe Schmidt (New Zealander) after the Heineken Cup…“Joe brings a relentless pursuit of excellence,”.

This comment is no longer available.

Well Carter looked pretty darn good this evening. Played at a level above anything Sexton could manage. He kicked 7 out of 10 including a bunch right on the sidelines and one the other side of halfway. He set up 2 tries with little grubbers, steered the Crusaders to a big victory against a good team and didn’t miss any tackles. If you’d still rather have Sexton good luck to you.

I don’t think anyone is disputing his class. His form too seems to be returning although still not sure his groin will last 3 tests. The dispute was over his best in class kicking. 7 out of 10 lowers his average and none were too crucial. He’s average in the international place kicking department. If he’s Daily Thompson of rugby then place kicking is his 1500 metres. Hell wins gold but he’s not perfect

Wrong Manuka…again. Go and have a look at his career stats – better than Wilkinson and an unprecedented success rate given the volume. If you think he is an average goal kicker by international standards you don’t know the meaning of average.

By average I mean if you take the top 10 countries current place kickers and their percentages at 75% im guessing that puts him around middle… As you hear of several being above that. Wilkinson a agree used to miss quite a few although one always felt he’d get the crucial 79th minute kicks.

What rubbish. DC is one of the greatest kickers to ever play the game. End of.

Deus Christus. With DC around could you get away with average coaches and not notice? Just hypothetically?

To anyone who gives Ireland “no chance”, Scotland’s result v Oz provides one plausible scenario how Ireland might win.

It’s not that we don’t give Ireland a chance, but we are ready for the battle. New Zealand, probably Argentina too, have all sorts of seasons too. We play in the snow, gale force winds, rain, shine, mud… what have you. If fact Scotland, Ireland and New Zealand are similar with the elements just different times of the year. By the way, Scotland’s victory over the Wallabies has nothing to do with the All Blacks playing Ireland at Eden Park.

Scotland’s win was quite expected given Oz recent losses to England Samoa and Ireland, and Scotland’s good form outside 6 nations and given the forecasted rain. And given it was on a Tuesday after a Super 15 weekend. And key players out. Oz have been admirable unlike SAf in their lack of excuses before and after the game. Ireland still have declining chances given loss to Ospreys, Baabaas injuries and a much better opponent now Carter has returned to form and Ferris and a few others out. I was one saying Ire had a better chance in first test, but as its got closer I think now there is very very little chance of an upset. I will be hoping for one though. BOD deserves it in NZ and Ireland are good giant slayers. If Carters groin goes and a few other random misfortunes Ireland have a chance. They will feed off everyone writing them off. Ireland you have no chance.

“Scotland’s win was quite expected” Huh? I’m sure the guys who bet $8.50 to earn $1 on an Oz win are surprised to hear that. It can only be described as a “stunning upset”, even if materially aided by playing conditions “on the day”.

I was expecting it when I said what odds on Scotland win followed by Wales losing 3-0. I’ll stick to that even as everyone now seems to be backing Wales to win the series.

Dan Carter.

Dan Carter, All Blacks, Steve Hansen…“Best yet to come.”

Well, obviously a wonderful performance by the ABs with little sign of rust. No doubt a sweep is the most likely outcome. That said, Ireland did a very good job at the breakdown, turning the ABs over at critical moments throughout the match. They simply couldn’t handle the ABs speed and power on the outside. If they run into weather similar to Scotland/Oz from the other day, I think it would help Ireland, negating the ABs speed advantage. An upset, particularly on the third test if Hansen plays more of the younger players, is still possible, though unlikely.

Sexton better than Carter…heck he’s not even good enough to mix it with Cruden and Barrett. Irish eyes must wish they were dreaming because reality is cruel. All Blacks to win The Rugby Championship by some margin.

Oh come on James – not the red haze again! Sexton was one of Ireland’s best performers but no 10 is going to look good behind a pack that’s being beaten in the contact so consistently. Easy enough to compare his performance in 2nd and 3rd Tests isn’t it?

As for the RC we’ll see. I guess you were probably just as confident of the junior Blacks winning their world cup, but they didn’t.

No red haze here mate. Just stating facts…and there was a lot of very bullish Irish sentiment prior to the series that was proven unfounded. Yes Ireland were good in ChCh but the ABs were off their game and still won. I didn’t think he was that good in the 2nd test – as he is prone to do he missed the most important kick. I’ve got every reason to be confident about the RC but was not confident about Baby Blacks – they are a very poor imitation of the previous sides ( see result against Wales) and I don’t expect many of that squad to take the step up. Aside from that the English referee was either totally biased or blind and the Baby Boks had a much better scrum.

The All Blacks regrouped and out played the Irish every way. If other writers on this forum were bothered to read what BOD and other fellow Irish team mates said(boasted) prior to the 3rd test then one would understand that the New Zealand victory was more sweeter than usual and everybody is in their right place! Sexton is okay, but ABs first fives are superior down the newest All Black on debut. This article is about New Zealand All Blacks and the Irish Rugby team playing their 3 test. Jack Squirek, bringing into topic about the junior WC is like clutching thin air. Desparate. We might as well talk about who’s leading the 7’s now and the champions of the Womens RWC 2010…but we wont get into that. And Michael Goldstein, saying an upset is still possible, though unlikely, if Steve Hansen plays the younger ones is your lack of insight into New Zealand rugby or rugby in general. The 60-0 win is accredited to the team as a whole. Sam Cane, Aaron Smith, Brodie Retallick, and Beauden Barrett are young and contributed greatly to the victory. Your opinions of All Blacks Steve Hansens coaching and selecting is something you don’t have a clue about. As for the Investec Rugby Championship it’s going to be a tough one after the Super 15s, but the All Blacks are just getting warmed up, so August will commence with the strong SH teams ready to battle. Go All Blacks!

@Hunter. Sure the Irish were outplayed, you can’t argue with a 40 point average over three games. The question is, which was the more typical result, the two hammerings or the 2nd Test? I think the answer is somewhere in between. Ireland clearly just had the one big emotional performance in them on this trip, after that the tank was empty. All else being equal, I would guess that the All Blacks are about 15 points better than Ireland.

What was good from Hansen’s point of view is that certain weaknesses were exposed in the 2nd Test that needed to be addressed. Without Brad Thorn, your scrum is ordinary. I’m not sure how much depth there is behind the starting front-row either. You can be beaten at the breakdown, so that may be a worry with David Pocock hoving into view. There are things to work on.

And look, it’s plain silly to say Beauden Barrett is already better than Sexton. He isn’t. Time and again we have to come across this “Oh NZ have at least 5/6 players better in that position than your seasoned international…” and it’s plain rubbish. It’s just guesswork based on your overexposure to NZ rugby and underexposure to European equivalent. Before the tour began James told me confidently that Cian Healy would not get anywhere near the AB squad, but over the course of the series he’s been comfortably the best prop on show on either side!

So I think you might show a bit more grace in victory, at least enough to activate your second eye. Instead of just gassing-away.

One has to change ones tune after a 60-0 game. Fans and opponents alike. The banter seems pointless.

@Manuka. Well banter is what the forum is for!

I guess the point is I don’t see the 60-0 result as typical of the difference between the sides. Neither was the 22-19 2nd Test. There’s probably about 15 points between the sides in reality.

Jack Squirt, banter is what the forum is for! 3 test matches… 2 of which are very high scoring of which the last was a record breaking margin. The middle game close, but the All Blacks won even playing at clearly not their best. The difference between the two sides is great. The IRB rankings are about 12 points difference with New Zealand at 1 and Ireland at now 7. RWC 2015 pool placement is coming up in Dec. These are the points that matter. What reality are you talking about and claim to be important. I also watch RaboDirect 12, some Aviva Premiership, Heineken Cup, 6 Nations. Out of all of those I like the 6 Nations most. It’s test rugbyre presenting countries which is always fun to watch. The Heineken Cup is okay, but the SH comps are my favourite. Curry Cup, Super 15s, the old Tri-nations, Bledisloe Cup, and the ITM Cup. My exposure is enough to know which one I prefer and that is watching SH teams going at it with each other. Remember what you said…“Well banter is what the forum is for!” Can’t wait for the Air New Zealand European Tour.

@hunter

No doubt incendiary comments like this one from Brian O’Driscoll justify any amount of boorish behavior by the AB fans: “It’s definitely something on own personal bucket list that I want to do. It hasn’t been done by an Irish team before and you want to achieve something that no one else has.” How dare he even think he could beat the ABs once in his life! Routs take on their own logic, and to read too much into a lopsided score is silly. You can conclude that, on the day, the winning team played much better than the loser, but not much more. This year the Blues lost to the Crusaders 59-12 (a score that flattered their performance, since they scored all their points late). Two weeks later they played one of the matches of the S-15 season, and battled the table-topping Chiefs, who barely squeaked out a 34-41 win. Which is the "real’ Blues team? Both. Neither. On average somewhere in the middle. But real players play real matches and the rugby ball has a way of bouncing in strange ways, and human courage and determination can play a large factor in the final result. That’s why we watch the matches. Clearly, the ABs are the much stronger side, which makes the Irish near-upset in the second match all the more impressive. To deny that dishonors the Black jersey, as it can only discredit the close match of two weeks ago.

@Hunter.

Aside from your childish beginning… You have to apply a few simple rules when comparing teams, such as where the games occur in their annual cycle.

I would tend to disregard the 3rd Test as something of a freak result because the Irish were very obviously an emotional empty shell for that game. The first two Tests were real. So I think there are about 15 points between the teams all other things being equal.

Frankly I get a bit fed up of the kind of All Black supporters who try to make as if other sides don’t deserve to grace the same field as them, they’re so much better. We hear it before the game, and usually after it too. If we don’t it’s because there’s a hailstorm of excuse-making instead!

Having had considerable experience of true All Black supporters, I can confirm that they’re usually very well-informed and lack the sheer conceit sometimes displayed on here by their lesser brethren.

I suggest you reread Michael G’s latest comment in the hope that it may at least drum some respect into you.

Okay, like it or not I do think Ireland played a great game for the second test. I do believe that was their “freakish game”. Overall the All Blacks average for 3 test in this case would state big wins.. 2 out of 3. But you wont agree and that’s okay. The comments that helped to excite the All Black fan base were on and before the 19th. Not the one you quoted Mr. Goldstein. The reaction, if you read the “true All Black” comments following it on the All Blacks website, was full of passion. I was very mild in comparison. What makes a “true All Black” support Mr Squirek I wonder? I suppose it’s somebody that you says what you want them to say and not hurt your feelings. I’m an All Black supporter to the day I go to the happy hunting grounds. I go onto the Irish Rugby team Facebook and read their colourful comments and feelings. It’s great to read them and there are real cheeky ones or down right nasty, but that’s okay too. I didn’t celebrate the victory on their personal facebook forum, but on this forum and the All Blacks.com we all did. This is an open forum for everyone. Oh and Mr Squirek when talking about childish beginnings you should learn to let go of those double standards. Reread your last sentence on comment# 78. If you can’t take friendly banter don’t give it! The Blues and Crusaders games example a bit weak. Which game denotes the real “Blues”. Neither. You take the average of those two games…horsehockey!! The Blues suck and what you do is take the average of the last 15 Super 15’s game…which states the obvious. They are lucky to not get the wooden spoon. Even the Lions beat the Sharks in round 14. I’m here to write on this site whatever I choose. If you can’t handle that… that’s okay with me too.

You clearly don’t know much about Irish rugby Hunter, if you believe the 2nd Test was somehow freakish. But we can forgive you that.

For me, the true AB supporters are the ones who have strong but reasonable opinions and are prepared to back up those with in-depth knowledge. I don’t see that with you [just a lot of stats], but I do see the crowing and the gloating.

@hunter

I’ll take it as progress that you believe Ireland played a “great game”. Considering it was in NZ, against an AB team that is “in form”, it’s one of the best NH performances in years (I exclude World Cup elimination matches against France for obvious reasons). What you may have missed in this commotion is that I am an ABs fan, and was rooting for them to win all of these matches. However, I have to agree with @Jack. Next to the top Kiwi sides in the Super-15, my favorite clubs in the world are Leinster and Munster. No, their skill level isn’t to the level of the best Kiwi sides. But it’s a very high level (especially the recent Leinster Clubs that dominate the Irish national team), better than most SH teams outside of the Kiwi elite. More importantly, Leinster has a mental toughness and resilience that is unmatched anywhere, and is what makes them so rewarding to watch. It’s how they’ve managed to win the Heineken Cup 3 of 4 years, which is an enormous achievement. The Irish national side hasn’t always reflected the toughness of the club players, and the standards are higher. So it was good to see it come out this tour. But if you know the players, the turnaround was “typical” not “freakish”.

I refer right back to the sentiment at the top of this thread – that Ireland was going to get their butt kicked and the ABs would be far too good again. 60-0 is all that needs to be said now about the difference in quality between the two teams. Saying that and believing that doesn’t mean I’m anti-Irish or don’t like you or your rugby team. I’m a fan so there is no reason for me to ever be humble – my attitude one way or the other has no bearing on any results. Jack we are going to continue to disagree on players until the cows come home, Healey was your best player in my opinion but I’d rather take our front row and backups over yours anyday. Your locks were virtually invisible and yes I’d take BB right now over Sexton – a better kicker, runner, passer and defender. All Blacks to win the Rugby Championship with room to spare.

James, yes I think we’ll have to agree to disagree. All I would add is that it’s exactly this attitude of superiority that has caused all the problems for the All Blacks at previous world cups.

It happened in 2007, and it nearly repeated last year when, although NZ were the best team in the tournament, they were a distant second best in the final.

This really gives the rest of the rugby world hope, because you don’t seem to be able to evaluate your players accurately and objectively against their opposite numbers in other countries!

IMO South Africa will give you a big wake-up call in the RC if they get some key individuals back from injury.

The All Blacks were the best team in the final and that’s why they won it. Fan attitude and player attitude have NOTHING in common.

Sorry but fan/coach/player attitude does all come from the same source, whether it’s in caps or not. And NZ did not outplay France in the final, they just got luckier than they did in 2007.

Wrong on both counts. I’ve never heard our players talk big, the always talk the opposition up even if they are lightweights. We outplayed France in the final and in 2007, the only difference being in 2011 the ref wasn’t a cheat.

You’re right your players don’t talk big, however complacency affects everyone in different ways.

And fyi the ref in 2011 was worse than in 2007! He made five or six glaring errors in favour of the Kiwis. Why do you think the AB management made sure he got the appointment?

Interesting logic – given that the All Blacks have a better record than anyone else and have never lost to Ireland, Scotland, Samoa, Tonga etc whereas the likes of SA, Australia and France have. In fact the only teams we’ve lost to in the past 9 years are SA, OZ, France – hardly a sign of complacency. Feel free to keep on baiting but only a jealous AB hater could ever with a straight face argue the Barnes wasn’t totally incompetent. Rolland did a superb job and let the teams decide the result. France had chances to win the game but didn’t.

Gee whiz, we’re rehashing the World Cup now? One would think that supporters of a side that has won 90% of its matches against 5-nations competition (excluding Italy) since 2000 could afford to be more gracious in both victory and defeat. James, if by the ref being “a cheat” in the 2007 match, you’re referring to Wayne Barnes missing the forward pass, I agree with you that he missed the call. However, in your more lucid moments, I would imagine you’d agree that 1) a forward pass at the end of a 40 meter line break is the kind of call that’s often missed because refs can’t keep up with the play and 2) the ABs have been the beneficiary of that kind of “missed call” many more times than they’ve been victimized. To call the ref a “cheat” because of this call makes you look silly. The All Blacks strength is also their weakness in the World Cup play. Their style requires a willingness to take risks, and to move the ball with a freedom that’s “unconscious”. When the AB players get overwhelmed by the occasion, which they’ve done at some point in every world cup since 1987, they can’t fully execute their style. Part of the genius of the AB coaching staff under Graham Henry was to anticipate this might happen, and to build a team that could win “negatively” as well as positively. I disagree with Jack that France outplayed them: the ABs, overwhelmed by what was happening, retreated to a defensive style and pulled it off, something possibly no other team in the world could have achieved. That they played negatively doesn’t mean they were outplayed. Indeed, I thought their defensive stand at the end of the match was quite heroic. Still, what’s the matter with being gracious, whatever the outcome and whatever the reason? This is sport, after all.

Michael – he brought it up…and I’m easily goaded. As I’ve said ad naseum here and elsewhere many times, Barnes’ peformance was the worst I’ve ever seen. The forward pass was the least of his crimes, yellow card, no second half penalties etc etc and I stand by my comment of cheat…but lets move on. Agree with you on the win ‘negatively’ idea and that was what was so pleasing about the result. As for being gracious there is a time and a place for everything. I back the ABs 100% win, lose or draw with a lot of pride but am not doing it to wind up anyone else. A lot of AB fans I speak to are extremely negative about the players, coaches, results, and future outlook so I have the same debates with them. Like I said am just sharing my honest opinions not trying to win any arguments.

Good accurate comments Michael. I don’t think anyone will argue that – against all the odds – France had the better of the final. Nonetheless it was just that NZ won the tournament as a whole.

James, the intention isn’t to bait, just to provide a bit of balance to the kind of AB support that seems to build its own heroes into gods and demean all else to also-rans. I think your comment about Healy is a case in point : he can be quite obviously the best prop on show in the series, yet you still can’t bring yourself he’d even make the AB bench. Sad.

And the guy who reffed the wc final was Craig Joubert, not Rolland. Nuff said.

My bad. He did such a good job I forgot who he was. I will argue that point til the cows come home – NZ played better in the final and that’s why we won.

@James just a reminder, it’s the ABs that are great. You are not. All you did was get born on the same island as some of them. Would be good if you stopped chasing off the diversity of rugby discussion with your continuous “we’re the kings of the castle and your the dirty raskles” bragging. It’s not pride it’s pure arrogance built on achievements of others.

Anyone know what happened to the planet rugby website?

I’m well aware of that fact. If you want to play semantics this will get old very quickly. Win, lose or draw it will always be “we.” The All Blacks are the best team in the world and that’s a fact – why should I pretend otherwise? Planet Rugby still up last time I looked.

I agree with James, “we” will always be fans of the All Blacks no matter where you are from or how the outcome of the games.

Nothing wrong with whole-hearted support. Just learn to show a little respect [and not just selectively]. Re-reading Wayne Smith’s last post on South Africa would be a good start.

Good on you Hunter – 100% agree. Jack you are boring me so keep your advice to yourself. If you’d bother to read the comments after that article you would see how much I respect the Boks and their players.

@James. Stay in your own little world, no skin off my nose.

@Jack likewise. The less said about teams from the UK the better.

Sorry, but I prefer to live in the world of truly international rugby, where every team is of interest and worthy of respect. That’s the diff.

Yawn. I’m actually a big fan of the international game – my lack of respect for the UK game is because of the boring rugby you play and pompous fans like yourself who think everyone else should adhere to your code of conduct.

James, you’re just the forum equivalent of a flat-track bully. Nothing more, nothing less.

Jack – you’re the one who decided to make it personal. I started off by saying “3 nil to the ABs again. Bank it.” and things have steadily gone downhill from there. Lets move on.

I’d be glad to! Earlier in this thread you commented :

“Jack, Michael, Manuka – unreserved apologies for some of my last comments. Not trying to bully anyone just get a tad overexcited about some of these themes – but should treat you all with respect even when I passionately disagree. As mentioned previously on another thread I watch as much rugby as I can (at all levels) and spend a lot of time in the UK. I was lucky enough to make it to about half a dozen live matches here this season including both finals at Twickenham and that dreadful match at the Stoop. As such I think that gives me some license to comment on European club rugby compared to the Super 15. Leinster and Quins are both excellent teams that play rugby the right way but for my mind lack the X factor and broad skillsets from prop to fullback. Brad Thorn and Kaino are massive holes to fill, the best in the world in their position but other than that the Crusaders and NZ packs are unchanged. The Hurricanes backline is quite sensational at the moment, they play at a pace you just don’t see in Europe. The Highlanders are far from perfect but have an experienced and proven front frow. As for Healy he was my man of the match against Australia in the World Cup but the Aussie front row is a real weakness as we all know. I’d take Woodcock, both Franks, Mackintosh, and Faumuina over him accepting of course some of those guys are better suited at tight-head. I’m not saying Ireland or Leinster aren’t good teams (in Leinster’s case really good) I just don’t think they match up well with what NZ has at the moment. We can go back and forward on this and at the end of the day it is opinions that can only be proven on the pitch. It’s been 8 months since the ABs have played so more than anything just really excited about this series.”

I think this strikes the right note. You don’t need to apologise to me or anyone else or change your opinions. Just hang on to that belief that someone, somewhere else in the world can play decent rugby – and not just the Boks!!

This comment is no longer available.

@John. For goodness sake, just untick the email button at the bottom of the page, dopey. At least this is the one thread that’s generated some energy and liveliness on these god-forsaken forums. Most of the time it’s article plus 5 or 6 insipid comments and out.

Even though I don’t agree with James most of the time at least he puts himself out there, adds some colour, and probably knows his rugby. And FYI I played rugby to regional level.

This comment is no longer available.

Agreed. Actually John I played to senior club level – was decidely average but still play now for fun. All of which is totally irrelevant on an internet forum as no one here is claiming to be an expert. I’d email them at contact us and sure they can fix it for you. All the best.