Oempf we already have a bunch of yapping scrumhalves do we want props to yap as well. I have a idea why not put the referee in a scrum and let him have it. He will soon learn why is what happening in a scrum

Why would ref listen to a prop when you admit you don’t understand why something is happening. No necks don’t have a whole lot of things to think about. Get down, head up, bind and push straight ahead. If you did those basic things we could get on with the part of the game that really matters. Scrums are a side show today.

Peter – I think you prove Castrogiovanni’s point, it seems that your perception of a front row player in the scrum is the same as many refs…….. it does seem though that rather than listen to constructive ideas about scrummaging the powers that be seem to just put sticking plasters on the problem. I dont know the answers, but there must be more effort, be it coaching technique or listening to ‘no necks’, or even reinforcing the laws and make the yapping scrumhalf put the ball down the middle so that the scrum can be a truly contested! The only way now to win against the head (unless your totally dominant) is to excel at the ‘dark arts’. To me, and many, a forward battle (including scrums) are what we find thrilling, but there are problems and a holistic approach is needed to find answers.

Assume Castro means talk more to old props outside the 80 minutes not during the game. Makes good sense.

Gerard, I’m a player of both codes for 40 yrs. I coach and I ref. It seems, subconsciously you do know the answer. Reinforce the laws. How much more coaching technique do you think pros need within their 8 hr workday? You mention the dark arts and that is surely one of the problems along with another issue correctly raised. That of feeding. Within your comments you have the answer. Forward battles are indeed the difference between league and union and need to be encouraged. But endless resets of scrums is ridiculous and hardly part of the battle. No need to ask a no neck.

Well Peter lets see. Referees were told to be vigilant on hands on the ground from looseheads. Reason for it? Looseheads use the tripod to get in under the tightheads and scrum in under them depowering their scrum shoulder – in short the Loosehead gets an unfair advantage when he doesn’t bind and launches of that hand from the deck.

What does the modern professional and coach do now? Some smart coaches and Tightheads know that and they try to milk a penalty as they know we are focused on hands on the deck. It may be there technique at times to set up very low in crouch and hit down on the looseheads or crank their bind on looseheads arm… causing looseheads to drop their bind momentarily without intent…

you can actually distinguish between the 2 x pictures above you might find tightheads getting penalized when hands go to deck too. But in general looseheads will be the penalized correctly for their non binding.

OK Spooony. No doubt very factual, and you talk alot about illegal acts, but whats your point? My point is obvious. Follow the laws. Don’t attempt to practice the ‘dark arts’ and we can get on with the game.

No Peter. My point is there is 30 things a referee must really look at because they will milk a try that way. Some are under the believe that one must “reward the stronger scrum”. This is a term the Kiwis like to use but it is causing some confusion amongst referees and is encouraging stronger teams to cheat in their dominance. The ball-feeding team wants a stable scrum, the defenders want to create an unstable scrum and spoil. Penalize the cause not the result

Peter have you ever actually been in the front row? Props and hookers know what goes on in the scrum and know exactly what is going wrong and when. You can see this at any televised match when they actually ask the retired props and hookers what is going on and they can point out exactly were the scrum went wrong and why and who was at fault. Front rows dont like endlessly resetting scrums either. It is the fronts rows neck who is on the line, literally. All front rows have more knowledge about the scrum then the refs ever will. So why don’t the IRB/Referees actually use that knowledge?

Jerry, I have had to sub in at prop before. It is tough. I can assure you when new rules are trialled the powers that be, take props and all players’ input. They cover everything from all angles. This is one of the reasons we have the set of laws that we have. Things start to go drastically wrong as players try to ascertain an advantage through the dark arts. As a coach I teach a few. My FR and scrum half then know what to look for and bring to attention of ref. Do you have a particular problem which needs to be addressed that isn’t within the current laws?